(no subject)

[vivien]

So, fandom, how is Sam/Ruby (now that we have all the "socially conscious" facts) that much different from human/vampire sexcapades? Dead body, check. No soul, check. Hot, hot, hot, check!

It's just- no big deal to me. *shrugs*

And the funniest part???? Tonight on Ghost Whisperer, Melinda's newly dead husband, who's been ghosting about since their love is so endless, watched for a car crash victim to die and THEN JUMPED INTO HIS BODY ONCE THE SPIRIT WAS GONE THUS REANIMATING THE CORPSE. I laughed until I cried. Of course, Melinda and New!Jim get a second chance to fall in love (the price of new life was amnesia). I wonder if there is Ghost Whisperer wank about necrophilia? I AM THINKING NOT. :-P

Now I go collapse into bed. Whee. It's not even 9:30pm on a Friday. My life is exciting.

Comments

[viridian.livejournal.com]

Oh hell, are people wanking about this still?

I'm with you - "dead" body animated by demon, original soul outta there = WOOHOO HOT VAMPIRE/DEMON/WHATEVER SEXXXXINS!

[vivien]

I had a lot of catching up to do from last night, so it might not be a "still" thing. ;-)

[varadia]

No, it's 'still'.

*cries*

Fandom sucks.

[aberration]

I haven't seen the episode, but it seems like, with say, a comparison to Buffy, that the whole "it's a demon, not the body's original possessor" thing isn't exactly ... really respected by the show. I'd say it's more like if a demon in SPN effectively kept their own body - the soul was once human and is now "demonized." But in SPN, the demonized soul is very much in possession of a body that isn't their own. While you can argue that no one really "owned" that body at that point, it still was at one time someone else's, and it's still effectively being used like a ... venue may not be the word I'm looking for, but that's what it is, rather than two people. And SPN itself already has sort of a background with the concept of women's bodies as interchangeable. (I've wondered a few times when watching whether if our heroes were women, we'd always see demons as hot guys.) If I were going to make something of it, it'd be more about that idea of body ownership and possession rather than any sort of necrophilia thing.

[vivien]

In this episode, it was made very, very clear that the spirit had left the current body that Ruby took over. It wasn't killed by the demon (a la Buffy vampires); the person died and the demon moved into the body. This is what I was referring to in the comparison, as some of fandom is still very much up in arms over this new development. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, in other words. :)

And I still want to know if there is equal outrage over Ghost Whisperer's parallel situation!

[vivien]

*watches episode again in bed*

Hey, I am a deviant. I DON'T CARE! Go necrophilia!

[varadia]

I am become okay with it.

Not least because the fandom outcry is annoying more than depressing and stomping on my squee. SO.

[vivien]

We will ignore them all and squeeeee!

Although, to be fair, the folks I am reading now have mostly enjoyed it. I only saw one completely over-the-top reaction.

[varadia]

We can trade flists!

[aberration]

That still brings up a question of the use of a the woman's body that isn't really as comparable in a Buffy situation. I mean, I know in Buffy they say that the human soul is replaced by a demon one, but given the nature of the "demon" one and the only case I can think of involving a human and a not-re-souled vampire (Buffy/Spike), it always seems more like the soul itself it demonized the way one is in SPN and is in the same body. In SPN, these are clearly different entities - the demon doesn't take on the personality of whoever's body they're in except to attempt to fool others, the body is just a means of physically manifesting. The point isn't about the use of a dead body, it's about the use of what was someone else's body and whether you can really make that kind of separation or have that idea of body possession. I wouldn't say "ew you can't do it no," but I also wouldn't say "it's completely cool and okay."

And considering I don't pay attention to the fandoms of either of these shows (except for what occasionally shows up on Fandom Wank, which I haven't seen for either case), I wouldn't be able to tell you. I'd say for myself, I could definitely see a similar issue, though I also think it's fair to say you can't completely discount the existing context of demons and gender.

[vivien]

Well, considering that when it comes to watching/reading vampires and demons, I am purely in Fantasy Escapist Land. I will respectfully acknowledge your points while admitting, without guilt, that I am not really focused on gender issues when I watch my favorite shows or read my favorite books. Dissecting gender issues in genre is just not something I'm very interested in applying myself to.

[vivien]

But... I got the ones I'm enjoying reading most from you!

[varadia]

That is because I only recced you the ones that are watching the same show you are watching!

I am good like that.

*takes one for the team?*

[vivien]

You are awesome. *hero worships you*

Now that I am in bed, I am less sleepy. And also less able to breathe. Yay asthma and exhaustion.

[varadia]

Aw. That sucks.

*sends you magic healing orb of doom?*

[vivien]

Yes plz.

Okay, maybe sleep is nigh. Or night. Or, okay, yeah, it's time for bed. :-P

[aberration]

Ok then. It just seemed like you were asking for a difference between those two situations, so I presented one as I saw it. Working solely off the body issue, I wouldn't see a difference between those in SPN and Ghost Whisperer.

[spicedrum.livejournal.com]

The current perpetual outrage in Supernatural fandom boils down to "Sam is having sex with a girl that isn't me, so I am pissed off because he is supposed to save himself until I am magically transported into the show and/or I am projecting my stalkery lust for the actor onto the character and plan to marry Jared one day, so bitch better step off! Also, she is a complete whore and is not good enough* to give him an orgasm, which I don't understand is a biological reaction and therefore think must always (and only) be an emotionally fulfilling Event that is shared between loving, pure of heart soul mates who will be together forever!!!!!!!!!"

You can substitute "Dean" and "Jensen" in the place of "Sam" and "Jared" in that mess of a paragraph any time Dean has a sex scene, too.


Seriously. There are people out there discussing gender issues with the show, but that's not what ever causes the big hubbub.



*which is its whole separate gender issue regarding female spn fandom's hatred of women, but - like viv - I like to pretend that all doesn't exist because I deal with my own crap in real life and turn to tv and the internet for fun and games.


and objectification of hot people because I'm shallow and a hypocrite.

[spicedrum.livejournal.com]

p.s.

I'm not really a cat person, but I adore your icon. Tons.

[vivien]

AMEN, SISTER. You know, I've watched, with not a little bit of alarm, this Internet-based self-hatred spawn out of control while masked under fandom. If I were an academic person who wanted to get into the sociology of the Internet psyche, I could write a book about how fandom women see themselves that would be a hell of a lot scarier than any SPN episode.

I also, to be honest, think it's partly an age thing. We're both hanging out in the age bracket of "WTF, I am way too fucking tired to invest energy in analyzing and nitpicking anything unless it's at work and I'm paid to do it." I remember being much more passionate and willing to debate back in the X-Files days, as well as in my early days of Harry Potter fandom. I'd get awfully riled up. Now I'm just "mortgage-P's illness-family stuff-advocacy and serious thinky at work-head explodes!" I have to save my "riled up" energy to use sparingly.

I just wish some of the fandom hue and cry could applied to the truly foul shows out there like "Wife Swap". Go yell about that, girls. Get it off the air.

(((HUGS YOU))) Thanks for this, B. Sometimes I feel alone and adrift.

[vivien]

Hey you. I am sorry if I got snippy and cut you off. My brain was, literally, shutting down, and this kind of gender issue debate is what I avoid like the plague in fandom, because it puts me in a position in which I feel (whether the writer intends it or not) to be a "BAD GIRL! BAD FEMINIST! THERE ARE IMPORTANT ISSUES AND IF YOU DON'T SEE THEM YOU ARE BAD AND WRONG!!!"

Which is absolutely not what you were doing in this thread at all, because you think things like this through in a balanced and fair way. But with the tired, I just needed to say plz no more.

But with a brain that is now (mostly) awake, I see your argument, and agree that yes, in general SPN demon possession does not work like BtVS vampirism, but in this particular case of Ruby taking over a newly dead, spirit-vacated body (and in my opinion, once the spirit is gone, the body is just a mass of tissue and bone that rots; it has no humanity left to it, really) then it is really no different in use than a vampiric demon taking over a body and killing/corrupting the soul within and living a happy immortal (and blood-soaked) life.

I am detached from worrying about the body possession and all it implies because demons and vampires are bad. They do bad things. This is why I like them! So for me, after a week of fighting the good fight at work, work that is full of advocacy and equity issues, I go home, sit in my recliner, and enjoy worlds that are so pretend that the real world cannot invade.

So that's where I'm coming from, and that's why I rarely debate any kinds of issues when it comes to my escape valve pleasures.

[winding_path]

I don't know you, but can I just say, "Thank you"?

Because, yes, as Viv said, Amen to that. Now can we please just all settle down and get back to watching the show?

:)

[aberration]

I can't say I necessarily agree on your view of the body post-death, because... I guess I just do think it's more complicated than that. I don't think we as a society generally view a dead body as akin to a toy someone's done playing with, that it's ok to do whatever we want with it. We do have pretty complex understandings of the body, sometimes as something so personal to us that its treatment in death will affect the soul itself (even if that's not the logistical case in SPN. However we may feel in a fictional context, I don't feel like the general cultural understanding of the body is something that's simply "well, it's a pile of tissue now."

And yeah, Ruby is a demon, though she's certainly meant to be on of the "better" ones, and Sam is a human, even if he is meant to be going down a dark path. What worries me about having not seen the episode is that it may have totally been the case that all these moral concerns were addressed and the relationship itself was treated as something built on those issues. I'm just saying, that's why when I heard about this, despite in some ways being interested in the Ruby/Sam idea, felt "... well, ok, but it seems like there would be a ton of implications to that." And yeah, I'd apply all these issues to that GW thing.

[aberration]

I didn't respond to defend fandom, I don't really know anything about SPN fandom and I don't care that much (though I can feel something for them for at least bothering to wank about gender issues - I'm looking at you, Heroes fandom). But when I read about this development, I did get a very headtilty-"well, really?" reaction, and Viv seemed to be asking why someone would feel that way. Honestly, it didn't seem like something I was being overanlytical about, that was just a first reaction that could even be based off a wrong impression.

[aberration]

And thanks :)

[spicedrum.livejournal.com]

I wasn't attacking you - like you seem to think I was (?) - and I didn't think (or say) you were being overanalytical. You said you didn't know much about (the spn) fandom other than fandom wank, so I made a comment that I thought was over the top enough to not be taken seriously that included info about how the fandom seems to work. I'm sorry you took it personally.

[aberration]

My impression (and maybe I was wrong) was that you were trying to explain Viv's position on fandom. I was just saying SPN fandom is just not really relevant to my comments or thinking, and that was why. I really do not doubt that SPN fandom is as silly as you guys say it is. It just doesn't really have anything to do with the show itself to me.

[vivien]

Not agreeing on issues is perfectly fine. ;-)

What makes me kind of- I don't know what the word is. Amused? I think it's amused - is the fact that with Ghost Whisperer, a beloved character is alive again, and the storyline is being set up as one of "hurray!romance, Jim and Melinda get to fall in love all over again, only he's in a slightly different body". I don't really know any fandom places to look for response, but I know there was a large uproar about Jim being killed off, because he is such a great character. So anyway, I doubt this has even come up, though, in that fandom, because Jim is good and yay!

But "Ruby is bad and boo!" seems to be a loud response by many of SPN fandom, and yeah, they are the same exact situation. When you see the episode, I'll be interested in hearing what you think.

ETA Ahahaha, I found the GW fandom communities. Most of the fans are furious, mostly because Jim as they like him as gone, but there is a good bit of "EW CREEPY! Won't the body rot?" reaction, too. So yeah. It is not all just hugs and puppies and reanimated corpses in that fandom either. It's still funny that both of those storylines happened in quick succession.

I'm sorry if the whole thread here got a little "Grr arg". SPN fandom insanity causes knee jerk reactions even amongst those of us who don't play into the crazy.

[spicedrum.livejournal.com]

before I read the comment that just popped into my inbox, I want to say that my last comment probably didn't come out as politely as I normally would try to make it, and I'm sorry for that. Pain makes me less diplomatic than I like to be. You wouldn't be on Viv's friendslist if you weren't good people, so I hope I wasn't offensive.

[spicedrum.livejournal.com]

It's my impression of fandom, not Viv's (though we share major opinions on it). I try to stay away from it because there are quite a few people and ideas that make me raise my eyebrows higher than Dana Scully ever did. I can see where it looked like I was jumping into something to defend viv, and I hate that feeling of being dogpiled on when I'm trying to just have a discussion, so I can understand where you were coming from, but I totally didn't mean it like that. I didn't think there was anything to defend - you guys were having a decent discussion, and I was just trying to be a wiseass, which is my default operating mode. Here's the "dry translation" of my original comment:

There are a lot of whackjobs in SPN fandom, and they tend to freak out if any woman but them seems to have a chance at a relationship with the Winchester brothers - the characters or the actors who portray them. There are a lot of issues that can be discussed regarding the show (the material itself, and also the "politics" of fandom and where that "freaking out"/hatred comes from), but I prefer to just enjoy what I see because it's an escape from major issues in life that I deal with on a daily basis, most important these past few weeks being the worry that my parents and grandmother may not be able to afford heat on their limited social security benefits and not making enough money to help them out, and also my poor health these days.



It's just not as fun to say it that way. =P

[vivien]

I will also jump in and say that shoroko has some great analysis on shows; she is even-handed and fair, and I respect her opinions. I was being flippant with my post, for the most part. I am not into the analysis as much, and she was being thoughtful when I was not prepared. I'm very much enjoying our discussion now that I am actually awake.

She is definitely "good people". As are you!

[spicedrum.livejournal.com]

Darn you, I was editing that because I forgot something! =P

Here's my edited "translation":


There are a lot of whackjobs in SPN fandom, and they tend to freak out if any woman but them seems to have a chance at a relationship with the Winchester brothers - the characters or the actors who portray them. There are a lot of issues that can be discussed regarding the show, but generally when there is a big "To-Do" about the show, it's the whackjobs, who usually are female, hating on women - fictional or otherwise.

I prefer to just enjoy what I see because it's an escape from major issues in life that I deal with on a daily basis, most important these past few weeks being the worry that my parents and grandmother may not be able to afford heat on their limited social security benefits and not making enough money to help them out, and also my poor health these days. The whole culture of hating female characters (or women who date the actors) and demonizing them with slurs that maybe should be abhorrent to the women using them is extremely interesting to me, but right now I am just here for the pretty, and explosions. Because explosions are awesome. (sorry. I can't stay serious for that long)

[vivien]

I am quick on the draw, lady! You have to be fast to keep up with me during, you know, my hours of awake time, which have been very limited today.

Urg, I am sorry you're feeling so poorly. I know that has been a serious drag on your energy and spirit lately. Yay explosions!

[spicedrum.livejournal.com]

=)


Total Recall is on SciFi right now. EXPLOSIONS, YAY!

[aberration]

Ah, okay. See, from the context I thought you were responding to me because you thought I didn't understand why Viv would respond to fandom that way, and I just wanted to be clear that what I was saying wasn't about fandom. Seriously, I rarely bother to bring up an opposing opinion unless it's to someone who I know is perfectly capable of handling it (which, as you'd no doubt know from fandom, is rarely guaranteed on the internet). It wasn't something I brought up in any other reaction post on my flist because I hadn't seen the episode and didn't really feel the need to, but here it seemed like the question was being asked, and I feel perfectly comfortable putting up my view because I know Viv is awesome.

Though I have to admit, it's probably not good that my go-to shows for escapism are ones I consider silly or just not very good, because then when someone tells me that I can just be "Yes! I know!" instead of being all "bah, I want my good show to stay good every single time, damn it!"

[aberration]

But "Ruby is bad and boo!" seems to be a loud response by many of SPN fandom

Oh, fandom. It is so not at all surprising when you forget that it takes two to tango.

[spicedrum.livejournal.com]

Yes, Viv is awesome. That's a subject we can wholeheartedly agree on without needing ten comments to clarify that we agree. *g*

I've got great people on my flist, and sometimes I guess I unconsciously take it for granted that my humor is understood when I post in their journals instead of commenting to them in mine, and forget that if you don't know me, you won't know that I'm always a smartass.

I hope to see you around Viv's journal again. =)